View Full Version : Starter Relay Mod-Not a good Idea 56kers
Ok so I was directed here by Finnon, in relation to an issue I've been having with my car not starting. He suggested I do the "Starter Relay Mod." It seemed like a good Idea so I decided too. Yet, heres the problem, I'm confused about what to do next please see below.
Here are some pictures I took of what I've done so far. This is correct yes??!?! And the red wire I have by the brown connector, can that brown connector be cut and spliced to the red, so that it connects directly to the relay, to the battery? Just verify this for me please because I don't want to mess anything up. So far I've done everything the write-up says too, I'm just not sure about how to do the rest. And about the electrical tape...yea I know its a bit...ghetto.
http://i13.tinypic.com/2cdwyrl.jpg
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ahh welcome aboard mate, im sure someone will post up soon about this to help you out. though as its now 1230 am over here perhaps it will be a few hours before someone does
heres another poss:
http://www.forum.mkiiisupra.net/showthread.php?t=10077&highlight=starter+relay+mod
heres the other thread where this was worked out:
http://www.forum.mkiiisupra.net/showthread.php?t=6005&page=1&pp=15
Delphius
06-11-06, 01:31 AM
Okay, I'll give you details of which wire needs to go to which contact numbers on the relay.
Pin 85 is connected to earth
Pin 30 is connected to the battery positive terminal
Pin 86 is connected to the original brown starter wire
Pin 87 is connected to the starter where the brown wire used to connect.
Connect pins 85 and 86 first, then get someone to turn the key to start and make sure the new relay clicks. Once you've confirmed you are activating the relay coil from the starter circuit, then you can connect up to pins 87 and 30. Now turning the starter should turn the starter motor.
Also you really need a fuse in the circuit between the battery positive terminal and the relay. Otherwise the wiring between the battery and starter solenoid is unprotected and if it gets trapped or shorted to earth could cause a fire.
Also it's easier if you fit the relay nearer the starter motor, either on the inner wing, or using one of the bolts under the inlet plenum. The same bolt provides the earth. That way, the brown starter wire can connect directly to the terminal on the relay, rather than having to cut and splice wires.
See this:
http://uk.geocities.com/delphiusrodents/supra/relaymodtxt.jpg
Hope this helps.
Mark.
Delphius...you, are, a, god! Thanks so much man! Same goes for you Finfon! Hopefully this will solve my starter problems. Few questions though, what did you use to connect the wiring to the relay? Spade connectors? Also, do I connect the brown wire to pin 86, and just run another from pin 87 to the starter? Other then that, this is really going to help!
-Joe
Roger NE
06-11-06, 08:52 AM
Hi Joe - yes that's correct, and as Delphius said if you mount the relay on the bulkhead near the starter motor, the original brown wire that went to the starter motor solenoid (with a spade plug on the end) should plug straight onto the relay terminal.
The advantage of that is you can easily just put it back how it was.
When I fitted a relay I soldered all the other wires to it, so there's less to go wrong! (but that's not essential)
The only thing I would say is that you will probably have LESS advantage with this modification . . . I came up with the idea as I discovered we have no Starter Relay on UK cars, so all the resistance of the ignition switch, its wiring, plus the wiring usually going through an alarm/immobiliser is ALL bypassed by this new relay.
However, US cars usually have a starter relay as standard in the footwell. You will have SOME advantage, as the original wiring is absurdly thin, and will increase in resistance with age - this mod overcomes that. But it will be less beneficial than on UK cars. (Hopefully it will still cure your problem!)
I hope it works, because i'm all out of ideas. I took out the alarm, replaced the starter, and put in a new ignition switch. And the only other thing I can think of, is it being not enough crank amps to turn the starter. SO maybe this will help maybe it wont. Where can I get spade connectors?
Dont answer the last post. I got everything I need. I just now need to get some time, and nice weather to finish it.
Delphius
07-11-06, 11:04 AM
Cool. I dunno about me being a god.... lol.
Yes, those are spade connectors on the relay. They were just crimped onto the wire and plugged onto the relay. And the connection to the starter motor solenoid used the same standard spade connector. It allows you to replace anything easily. For me it was a nice cheap mod... relay from the junkbox, I already had a reel of wire and I always carry spade connectors.
Yep, you're right with the way the wiring goes. What you're actually doing is using the voltage from the brown wire to work the relay coil. The swich part of the relay switches current direct from the battery to the starter.
One thing though, have you checked with a multimeter you get volts on the brown wire when you turn the ignition key to start? Even this mod won't save you if you don't get any volts there!
Anyhow, good look with it. If it works or not, come back and let us all know.
Mark.
Heh...so what do I do, if I dont have any power to the brown wire?:eek: Because...I dont, however, the mod was a success in the fact the I installed it correctly, but, will not know if it did anything because, well...it didnt do anything. Car is still not starting, and the Brown wire has no power to it.
**** lol... can you read wiring diags? i know there a headache like lol. good luck dude. wiring faults are a nightmare
So basically this car just did a scissor kick to my nuts...#&$%# great. Well, would this mean, that I would have to pull the wiring harness, and rewire the damn thing in? I mean, I could be wrong, but I used a multimeter, and I tryed diffrent ways, and didnt get anything when I turned it to start<--- Theres the denial speaking for me...damnit all to hell. So basically, in a nutshell, my car just took a crap on me.
Roger NE
09-11-06, 08:53 AM
Let's go back to the beginning . . . . when you turn the key I presume all the dash lights come on OK?
What happens (before this mod) when you turned the key to the starter position - did you hear a click from the starter motor but no cranking? It's THAT problem this eaxtra relay modification is meant to fix.
So if that is NOT the case something else is wrong . . . .
If your car is an AUTOMATIC there is an inhibitor switch in series with the starter to stop you trying to crank the car when not in PARK. That switch or the wiring to it may be faulty.
I also believe there is a similar switch on USA models that means even on a Manual gearbox you have to depress the clutch before you can crank the engine (we don't have that on our cars over here, as most people have always driven manual transmission cars)
So again that could be the problem.
The other alternative is the ignition switch itself gone faulty, or the wiring to it. (Bear in mind that Switches or their connections will nearly always be the problem, not the wiring)
Having said all that, a simple Make-do fix would be to apply 12V to that new relay from a new button inside the car when you want to crank the engine!
sorry to hear your having these problems mate. good luck in fixing it
Let's go back to the beginning . . . . when you turn the key I presume all the dash lights come on OK?
What happens (before this mod) when you turned the key to the starter position - did you hear a click from the starter motor but no cranking? It's THAT problem this eaxtra relay modification is meant to fix.
So if that is NOT the case something else is wrong . . . .
If your car is an AUTOMATIC there is an inhibitor switch in series with the starter to stop you trying to crank the car when not in PARK. That switch or the wiring to it may be faulty.
I also believe there is a similar switch on USA models that means even on a Manual gearbox you have to depress the clutch before you can crank the engine (we don't have that on our cars over here, as most people have always driven manual transmission cars)
So again that could be the problem.
The other alternative is the ignition switch itself gone faulty, or the wiring to it. (Bear in mind that Switches or their connections will nearly always be the problem, not the wiring)
Having said all that, a simple Make-do fix would be to apply 12V to that new relay from a new button inside the car when you want to crank the engine!
Ok
What happens (before this mod) when you turned the key to the starter position - did you hear a click from the starter motor but no cranking? It's THAT problem this eaxtra relay modification is meant to fix.
Thats whats its doing, yet, the clicking is still present, only now, its softer. My Car is an automatic, is the inhibitor easy to get at? Where is it located? Also, I replaced the ignition switch about a week ago, so that isnt it. And as far as a 12v button...how?
i think that could be on the auto box itself.
Steve W
10-11-06, 07:20 PM
Have you tried the old fashioned tapping gently with a metal bar?
Ok
Thats whats its doing, yet, the clicking is still present, only now, its softer. My Car is an automatic, is the inhibitor easy to get at? Where is it located? Also, I replaced the ignition switch about a week ago, so that isnt it. And as far as a 12v button...how?
try on www.supradupra.com for a write up on fixing starter motor faults. Stu replaced the contacts inside his cars starter motor. there available from toyota
Maybe I should have explained better what I had done to the car. Let me get my original post from SM.
I posted not to long ago about an issue I had been having with my starter not engaging. I found it to be the ignition switch and it started right up, no questions asked. However this Friday it stopped starting once again. The same issue as before, starter will not engage and turn over. So I am currently lost and need some help!
Below is a list of things I have done so far, to try and fix this problem.
1. Replaced starter.
2. gutted out the alarm system.
3. grounded the blue and orange wire, and the two under the hood.
4. replaced the ignition switch.
I've checked fuses and wires. Made sure my grounds were good, I even cleaned the brown connection to the starter, and still, It will not start! If anyone has any suggestions then please, tell!
-Joe
I have a new starter on the car, and I know, for a fact, that the issue, does not reside there. The clicking is from inside the dash, on the passenger side. I believe its a relay...could that be faulty?:confused:
hmmm i would either pm stuey (supradupra) or ed (darket) thery may be able to help you out
But wasa it a new starter? it may be a good idea to replace the contacts inside the starter aswell
It was a the whole starter. I got a refurb one, besides, I'm not going to dwell when my problem seems to reside in the brown connector to the starter. The starter works I drove the car around for about 3 days without any issues with it cranking over. It just recently stopped again for some reason.
Roger NE
11-11-06, 08:10 AM
Ok thanks for explaining what you've done, have a better idea now
If you can hear a clicking inside the car when you turn the key to the starter position, then that is probably your Starter Relay operating OK (which we don't have in UK cars - certainly not in Manual versions)
If your Auto Transmission inhibitor switch or wiring was faulty I don't think that relay would be clicking - you could prove this by seeing if it still clicks with the lever in the Drive position
The next thing to test is whether you have 12V on the original brown wire that went to your Starter Solenoid. You can test this with a Multimeter, or a 12V bulb connected to chassis - it should light whenever you hold the key in the cranking position.
If it DOESN'T, then your Starter relay is faulty or the wiring from it is broken.
Let me know what happens when you do this test before I suggest the next step . . .
Ive tested to see if I get 12v from the brown connector, and I didnt get anything. I will however, test it again tomorrow to make sure I'm correct.
Roger NE
12-11-06, 07:02 AM
Are you SURE that when you removed your Alarm/Immobiliser that you by-passed the wiring correctly? Because they normally interrupt the wiring to the Starter Motor as well as the ignition. A faulty relay inside the Alarm could have been causing your original intermittent problem, but if you didn't connect the wires together when you removed it then your starter motor will NEVER operate now!
If you're sure that isn't the case, you could have a faulty Starter Relay.
If you can hear it clicking when you turn the key, get someone to keep doing that while you find where it is. (I believe they put it in the LH footwell, although as I say we don't have them on UK cars)
When the relay is operating you will feel it vibrate, so you know you have the right one. Unplug it, and if you carefully remove its plastic cover you may see what the problem is (damaged contacts? which may clean up with some fine emery paper)
If that looks OK or doesn't cure the problem it must be your wiring from that relay to the starter.
Having said all this, as I said before - if you have fitted the additional Starter Relay (as in my suggested mod) you could use it as a temporary fix - you just need to feed 12V via a push-button inside the car to that new relay coil (so this will become your temporary starter button)
At least that would get you mobile while you suss the problem properly . . .
Roger, I love you... in a non-sexually oriented way of course!
However, could you elaborate more on this "push-button" method. Because I dont understand it. How would I get 12v to the relay with a push-button? And I'm positive I removed the alarm, and wired everything up correctly. I wouldnt have done it had I not known every detail, and bit of info on how to do it! I have what I followed below.
you have a couple of options here. if the door sensor is NOT fried:
close the door with it unlocked
put your key in the door, then lock it.
wait a minute or so, then unlock it.
when you cycle locking/unlocking the door like this, it is supposed to reset the alarm.
or you could go under the hood of the car, find the two wires that go to the hood sensor (so if someone pops your hood, the alarm sounds) cut them, and splice them together. this will make the alarm think that there is a door open, in which case the alarm cannot be armed.
this is the route i took:
go under the dash on the driver's side. attached to the steering column way up under the dash near the firewall is the alarm computer.
here's a pic of where it is, its called "theft deterrent computer":
http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/librar...be/BE_010.html (http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/TSRM/be/BE_010.html)
i completely removed my Theft Deterrant Computer, as there is no need for it to be in the car if i've bypassed the alarm function!
there is a wire you must cut. it is a blue wire with an orange stripe. cut it near the connector, and make an extension to the nearest ground, and ground it well!!!
once you pull out the computer, and ground the blue wire with the orange stripe, your alarm problems will be solved.
if, however you forget to ground that wire, your starter will not engage when you turn the key. it is the ground for the starter that the alarm cuts to disable it.
edit: to add some more info.
-shaeff
Sorry if I might sound pushy or naggy so to say. I just want to make sure I know what I'm doing, before I do it!
Roger NE
12-11-06, 09:24 AM
Our cars don't have an anti-theft device fitted at the factory - but I think all UK Dealers fitted Alarm/Immobilisers to them . . . so the wiring will vary from car to car
If yours had a Toyota system them I presume grounding that Blue Wire makes the starter work properly when you take the Alarm out - so are you sure you got a proper connection to the chassis with that wire? (as that is your most likely cause of the problem!)
In terms of a temporary button . . . well you just need to buy a cheap electrical push button (which you could just leave loose or mount on the dash, depending whether this is a temporary or permanent fix!). Find ANY 12V under the dash (the radio feed would do fine) and take it to one side of the switch . . . and run another wire from the other side of the switch to the coil of the Extra Starter Relay you've fitted fitted near the Starter Motor. Pressing the button will then crank the engine, so if the ignition is on it should start.
Alright, I really appriciate your help! You have no idea how much you, and everyone have helped me so far. I'll see what I can do as far as checking the relay in the dash, and getting a push-button going. I'll be sure to let you guys know!
-Joe
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