View Full Version : Grounding Kit Mod
I honestly wasn't sure whether to post this in technical or for sale and wanted.
I just fitted a generic grounding kit from ttp://www.groundingkits.co.uk/
and I’ve got to say that for bang for your buck it’s a good mod. The kit consists of a gold plated –ve battery terminal, five insulated wires (in bling colours Damo :) . Don’t worry Lofty they do black ones too :) ) and some cable ties to hold them in place. Although I’ve got a generic kit they’re in the process of developing a MKIII specific kit (I helped :bigeyes: ). I’ve had the car out on the road since fitting the kit and I’ve got to say she feels quicker. I know, they’re just cables (Nick gets really wound up about me claiming that I’m using a new cockpit polish and now the car seems quicker) but she does feel quicker. also the idle seems slower and smoother and she’s positively eager to start from warm. I’ve still got to crank her a bit on cold start but I’m sure that that’s the 14 year old fuel pump letting the juice run back to the tank overnight (Walbro and braided fuel hoses on the cards at some stage :) ). They’re selling the kits for £35-40 including P&P (they're not exactly sure to the last penny yet as the MKIII specific kit is likely to be 7 cables not 5. This caught them on their left foot a bit) and for the money I think it’s well worth it! They say that, if you tell them you're a club member they'll knock a £5-er off.
wow.. i'm an ex wireman (cable guy) so if i can knock up some cables, connectors and a clamp and sell them for £35 i'm laughing :D
Be good to see it fitted...
wow.. i'm an ex wireman (cable guy) so if i can knock up some cables, connectors and a clamp and sell them for £35 i'm laughing :D
Be good to see it fitted...
Your wish is my command. If you go to www.clubphoto.com and type ian.s.moyes@ntlworld.com in the "Album Search: Enter friend's e-mail or alias" box, then click the "Go" button it'll take you to our picture server. You'll find an albun called "Pictures for grounding kit development" there.
I've attached the fitting instructions to this message. PM me if the description or explanations give you a problem.
The kit now consists of 7 wires:
1 X 4"
3 X 9"
2 X 26"
1 X 34"
and a gold plated -ve battery terminal.
The guy who developed it asked if the engine block mounting points would work on a 1JZ as well as a 7MGTE. If anyone has a look at the pictures and makes comment (peter_edgar@hotmail.com) I'm sure Pete (the guy selling them) would appreciate the help.
I want to believe that this mod works, but I'd like to understand how. The most likely explanation, if there is a benefit, is that your existing ground wires and connections are corroded and adding the new wires improves things. But it would be just as simple to go through and check, clean and replace as necessary your existing wires. Do you have an explanation of the theory behind this Ian? Definately sitting on the fence until I learn more. :duck:
I want to believe that this mod works, but I'd like to understand how. The most likely explanation, if there is a benefit, is that your existing ground wires and connections are corroded and adding the new wires improves things. But it would be just as simple to go through and check, clean and replace as necessary your existing wires. Do you have an explanation of the theory behind this Ian? Definately sitting on the fence until I learn more.
OK, firstly I'm not very scientific about these things, if it seems like a good idea I go ahead and do it, then see what happens. So I don't have a very reasoned arguement as to why you, for example, should do it too.
Secondly, I think any explanation of a mod like this is suibjective theory.
The guy who makes them said that he thinks it works because the OEM will typically have one, maybe two earth straps from the battaery to the chassis and one, maybe two earth straps from the chassis to the engine. OEM's don't tend to have straps direct from the battery to the engine. This practice assumes that the chassis and the engine itself have 0ohms resistance which is, of course, not true. Also, since almost every system in the car is connected to the battery via these, pretty flimsy, OEM wires they are very noisy. He says that, having multiple ground contacts on the chassis and the engine block, and having all of the wires "daisy-chained" ensures that the engine systems get the most reliable and noise free, direct, earth.
Second of all, replacing 14 year old wires with new ones, twice the diamater has got to help :yes: . I've got a mate that, used to (until O2 free cable became available), replace his speaker cables on every car he got because they "deteriorate" over time. Never could get him to explain what "deteriorate" meant other than "they just don't sound as good"
Thirdly, they look nice too. :)
BUT, it's OK for you to choose not to do it :yes: . After all it wouldn't be much fun if each of us went out and copied all of the rest of us in modifying our Soops identically would it?
It wasn't my intention to convince everyone to go buy a kit, just to tell you all I'd done it and how I felt about it. :duck:
damo_mk3
02-08-04, 03:37 PM
sounds good to me need to c the pic's tho
damo
sounds good to me need to c the pic's tho
damo
See below damo.
Your wish is my command. If you go to www.clubphoto.com and type ian.s.moyes@ntlworld.com in the "Album Search: Enter friend's e-mail or alias" box, then click the "Go" button it'll take you to our picture server. You'll find an albun called "Pictures for grounding kit development" there.
OK, firstly I'm not very scientific about these things, if it seems like a good idea I go ahead and do it, then see what happens. So I don't have a very reasoned arguement as to why you, for example, should do it too.
Secondly, I think any explanation of a mod like this is suibjective theory.
The guy who makes them said that he thinks it works because the OEM will typically have one, maybe two earth straps from the battaery to the chassis and one, maybe two earth straps from the chassis to the engine. OEM's don't tend to have straps direct from the battery to the engine. This practice assumes that the chassis and the engine itself have 0ohms resistance which is, of course, not true. Also, since almost every system in the car is connected to the battery via these, pretty flimsy, OEM wires they are very noisy. He says that, having multiple ground contacts on the chassis and the engine block, and having all of the wires "daisy-chained" ensures that the engine systems get the most reliable and noise free, direct, earth.
Second of all, replacing 14 year old wires with new ones, twice the diamater has got to help :yes: . I've got a mate that, used to (until O2 free cable became available), replace his speaker cables on every car he got because they "deteriorate" over time. Never could get him to explain what "deteriorate" meant other than "they just don't sound as good"
Thirdly, they look nice too. :)
BUT, it's OK for you to choose not to do it :yes: . After all it wouldn't be much fun if each of us went out and copied all of the rest of us in modifying our Soops identically would it?
It wasn't my intention to convince everyone to go buy a kit, just to tell you all I'd done it and how I felt about it. :duck:Makes sense to me.. I was thinking along the lines of expensive replacement audio/video cables and why people do that.. Fixing aged cables, improving earthing etc will in fact make some subtle differences -- more consistent voltages, less interference, better spark, less strain on the alternator etc.. The resistance that builds up can be surprising on chassis earth systems. As a parallel, I always used to run independent earth wires on bikes to the extremeties, as resistance of the frame->bolts->more bolts-> bit needing power actually was quite marked..
As a sideline, unplugging and plugging in all your connectors is a pretty good thing to do as well, as it cleans the contacts a bit.. (but don't break any/pull wires out....) but that's pretty geeky lol
It would be interesting to have measured the resistance to the various earthing points before and after the wires were installed to see how much of a difference they make. Perhaps if anyone else is going to install a set they might like to try this?
It would be interesting to have measured the resistance to the various earthing points before and after the wires were installed to see how much of a difference they make. Perhaps if anyone else is going to install a set they might like to try this?
LOL! You see what I mean about me not having a scientific approach? :) I can imagine you doing that. :) Me, it was as quick as I could slap the wires on. I suppose it's just a case of upbolting half a dozen bolts and I could do this but I just know I won't get round to it. Anyway, I threw the OEM earth strap, from the engine to the firewall, in the bin and the truck's just been and carted it away. :banghead:
The other thing that occured to me is, you can measure the difference in resistance, before v after, but you can't measure what effect that's had on the cars systems that easily. I'm not sure I'm explaining what I mean properly. I think it would be like measuring how much petrol you're putting in the car, when what you really want to measure is MPG. It's a guarenteed fact the the resistance between the earthing points will be reducedby large diameter, O2 free cable (two resistors in parallel have 1/2 the resistance) but don't know how you would measure the impact that that has had on the car. Maybe if you measured the current that flows through the new cables it would tell you if they were making an impact?
Oh BTW. I decided to back up this mod and bought a gold plated +ve battery terminal (to go with the gold plated -ve terminal), it's on it's way :) .
Peter (@ www.groundingkits.co.uk) says he's going to try and source a clear/red silicone battery terminal cover so that you don't have to cover up the BLING. :)
buttmunch
03-08-04, 09:16 AM
Thats some pretty big claims for a grounding kit, would be good to take a car and do some dyno runs for hp, torque and fuel economy fit the kit and then do the same again coz I doubt you could measure the difference if indeed there is any.
The other thing that occured to me is, you can measure the difference in resistance, before v after, but you can't measure what effect that's had on the cars systems that easily. I'm not sure I'm explaining what I mean properly. I think it would be like measuring how much petrol you're putting in the car, when what you really want to measure is MPG. It's a guarenteed fact the the resistance between the earthing points will be reducedby large diameter, O2 free cable (two resistors in parallel have 1/2 the resistance) but don't know how you would measure the impact that that has had on the car. Maybe if you measured the current that flows through the new cables it would tell you if they were making an impact?
I understand the point you are making Ian, and I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to ridicule what you have done at all. I'm interested to find out why there is a benefit and also if the same benefit could be gained by improving the stock earth wiring using off-the shelf parts, or if the benefit is in the daisy chaining of the new wiring, or whatever.
I have always been sceptical of the claims made by O2-free directional cables as used in hi-fi systems too as many are made using 1.5mm copper mains cable.
Thats some pretty big claims for a grounding kit, would be good to take a car and do some dyno runs for hp, torque and fuel economy fit the kit and then do the same again coz I doubt you could measure the difference if indeed there is any.
I didn't find the reference site very easy to navigate (maybe it's not finished yet?) and I couldn't find any actual HP and torque claims. Other sites that I have seen offer something like 2HP and maybe 8ft/lb torque. I don't think that this would be enough of a gain to be noticable on the road, or repeatable on a dyno.
Hang on guys, let's not get carried away with this thing! It's turning into another "Which oil" debate. :)
Thats some pretty big claims for a grounding kit,
No, it's not. I haven't made any claims about it other than the car idles slower (definitely -100RPM) and smoother (it used to jump +200RPM when the AC compressor kicked in, you it's more like +50RPM), starts easier warm (click BRUM rather than click DADABRUM) and FEELS quicker (TOTALLY subjective).
would be good to take a car and do some dyno runs for hp, torque and fuel economy fit the kit and then do the same again
What? A dyno costs about £30-£35 doesn't it? Don't know about you but I'm not going to pay £60-£70 to prove (or otherwise) that a £35 mod. was good value for money! :banghead:
Make up your own mind if you want to buy the kit. Likewise, make up your own mind whether I threw £35 down the drain. :crybaby: Meanwhile, I think it made a difference to my car. :) Isn't that really all that matters?
Bondango
03-08-04, 09:46 AM
these have been about for years in jap-land and they do work. Not only providing better earthing, but that leads to better Fuel economy, readings from sensors etc etc
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0308it_pptalon/index.html
nice little read
I understand the point you are making Ian, and I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to ridicule what you have done at all. I'm interested to find out why there is a benefit and also if the same benefit could be gained by improving the stock earth wiring using off-the shelf parts, or if the benefit is in the daisy chaining of the new wiring, or whatever.
I have always been sceptical of the claims made by O2-free directional cables as used in hi-fi systems too as many are made using 1.5mm copper mains cable.
No probs Lofty, I understand. :)
Point I'm really making is it's the same situation as the air box + K&N v FIPK air induction. There are so many variables you end up choosing your favourite theory and making a decision based upon your own interpetation.
As for the benefits of 02 free cable I can tell you that I fitted my stereo and then had the cables done later, long story. :) IN MY OPINION, it DEFINITELY made an difference to the clarity of the treble and the depth of the bass. I feel that, in a confined space the size of a Supra, if you can discern the difference it must be significant. On the other hand, my wife couldn't hear any difference at all and thinks they were a complete waste of effort!
Then again, she accidentally turned the loudness off on her car stereo (bumped it with her hand bag I think) and didn't notice until I pointed out how flat her stereo sounded (I suspect it was weeks later!). :)
these have been about for years in jap-land and they do work. Not only providing better earthing, but that leads to better Fuel economy, readings from sensors etc etc
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0308it_pptalon/index.html
nice little read
Yeah but.
"As we stated earlier, the car did have a fire under the hood. We think the wires might have played a part in fixing a problem that might have previously existed from the get go."
Yeah but. ...
Also remember all of our cars are in the 12 years+ range and climbing. Corrosion, electrolytic effects and just sheer age will make earthing points deteriorate big time. I would think that doing this mod is a very good thing indeed, and in fact would probably prevent some minor electrical probs.. :yes:
black 86 supra
03-08-04, 10:17 AM
This is something I have been looking at doing for a while now, was waiting for a MKIII specific kit but seeing the universal one you have used, I think it dounds worthwile going with it for £35, I'm not sure about any claims but I can totally understand that improving the ground system will deff give off a better spark and therefore improve fuel economy and hp ?????
as for o2 cables, I had used some crappy rca cables on my previous ICE and had lots of noise interferance and now after using quality claimed o2 cables, I have lost all noise and the clarity is something to be proud of, I also replaced the positive batt terminal to a gold one which has improved the starter contact, all thats left now is the gropunding and given that they are 17 yr old cables, I think its a worthwile task.
This is something I have been looking at doing for a while now, was waiting for a MKIII specific kit but seeing the universal one you have used, I think it dounds worthwile going with it for £35,
You've missed a bit of the thread kiddo. :) www.groundingkits.co.uk HAVE DEVELOPED a MKIII specific kit, I helped. :bigeyes: As far as I'm aware, it's the only MKIII kit available on the market. It's <£40. He just hasn't got it on the website yet because we've been working out the bugs.
BUT. He doesn't know if it'll fit the 1JZ engine!
If you've got a 1JZ and you offer to help him you might get a discount on your kit. :)
As for the benefits of 02 free cable I can tell you that I fitted my stereo and then had the cables done later, long story. :) IN MY OPINION, it DEFINITELY made an difference to the clarity of the treble and the depth of the bass. I feel that, in a confined space the size of a Supra, if you can discern the difference it must be significant. On the other hand, my wife couldn't hear any difference at all and thinks they were a complete waste of effort!
I quite agree that improving the cables in the right circumstances is the right thing to do. If you had used the original cables with an uprated stereo system then it is possible that you had exceed the capabilities of the original wiring. I know from expierience that using a heavier cable to connect my bass guitar will give an improved response over a cheaper, thinner cable. But there would be no noticable gain from using 10mm cable over a 2.5mm cable. Do you see where I am going with this? There is a point at which cable size no longer plays a part, but cable and signal routing may. Just curious really.
JSeaman
03-08-04, 01:36 PM
I've got a load of 8 gauge wire hanging around so could knock one of these up in half an hour. Any chance of you posting up the fitting instructions so I can see exactly what they put where? ;)
You've missed a bit of the thread kiddo. :) www.groundingkits.co.uk (http://www.groundingkits.co.uk/) HAVE DEVELOPED a MKIII specific kit, I helped. :bigeyes: As far as I'm aware, it's the only MKIII kit available on the market. It's <£40. He just hasn't got it on the website yet because we've been working out the bugs.
BUT. He doesn't know if it'll fit the 1JZ engine!
If you've got a 1JZ and you offer to help him you might get a discount on your kit. :)
The 1J is a completely different engine layout.. so i doubt it'll fit.
buttmunch
03-08-04, 03:01 PM
Hang on guys, let's not get carried away with this thing! It's turning into another "Which oil" debate. :)
No, it's not. I haven't made any claims about it other than the car idles slower (definitely -100RPM) and smoother (it used to jump +200RPM when the AC compressor kicked in, you it's more like +50RPM), starts easier warm (click BRUM rather than click DADABRUM) and FEELS quicker (TOTALLY subjective).
What? A dyno costs about £30-£35 doesn't it? Don't know about you but I'm not going to pay £60-£70 to prove (or otherwise) that a £35 mod. was good value for money! :banghead:
Make up your own mind if you want to buy the kit. Likewise, make up your own mind whether I threw £35 down the drain. :crybaby: Meanwhile, I think it made a difference to my car. :) Isn't that really all that matters?
I was refering to the website claims in your link not having a go at you, I always find it hard to belive these companies that make all these claims about extra power and economy and a general all round improvement from things like this. But I would love to be proved wrong.
I was refering to the website claims in your link not having a go at you
Oh! OK, sorry. :)
I always find it hard to belive these companies that make all these claims about extra power and economy and a general all round improvement from things like this. But I would love to be proved wrong.
I s'pose that it will give you more BHP and LbFt but it's probably so small it's in the measurement error.
Pete's selling his 7MA kit here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32094&item=7914891514&rd=1
Delphius
02-09-04, 01:04 PM
OK, firstly I'm not very scientific about these things, if it seems like a good idea I go ahead and do it, then see what happens. So I don't have a very reasoned arguement as to why you, for example, should do it too.
Secondly, I think any explanation of a mod like this is suibjective theory.
The guy who makes them said that he thinks it works because the OEM will typically have one, maybe two earth straps from the battaery to the chassis and one, maybe two earth straps from the chassis to the engine. OEM's don't tend to have straps direct from the battery to the engine. This practice assumes that the chassis and the engine itself have 0ohms resistance which is, of course, not true. Also, since almost every system in the car is connected to the battery via these, pretty flimsy, OEM wires they are very noisy. He says that, having multiple ground contacts on the chassis and the engine block, and having all of the wires "daisy-chained" ensures that the engine systems get the most reliable and noise free, direct, earth.
Second of all, replacing 14 year old wires with new ones, twice the diamater has got to help :yes: . I've got a mate that, used to (until O2 free cable became available), replace his speaker cables on every car he got because they "deteriorate" over time. Never could get him to explain what "deteriorate" meant other than "they just don't sound as good"
Thirdly, they look nice too. :)
BUT, it's OK for you to choose not to do it :yes: . After all it wouldn't be much fun if each of us went out and copied all of the rest of us in modifying our Soops identically would it?
It wasn't my intention to convince everyone to go buy a kit, just to tell you all I'd done it and how I felt about it. :duck:
You might find that the change is a lot to do with sensor voltages. Just take one example: the Lambda sensor gives out a signal of around 0-1v. It doesn't take much resistance cused by corrosion under your existing earthing points to drop that voltage by 10 percent or more. So by fitting thicker cables and cleaning the earth points, you get improved engine response because the ECU gets a more accurate reading from the lambda probe.
The same goes for lamda sensors in general. They should be replaced after 100,000 miles or so, or after blown headgaskets. mainly because they deteriorate over time or get poisoned by things like coolant getting into the combustion mix.
What happens is engine performance drops off, expecially response to throttle movements. You don't notice it normally as it happens over a long period of time. But do something like change your earth leads and things suddenly get better
Mark.
benstevensuk
23-03-06, 09:40 PM
i agree whole-heartedly that new grounding cables and daisy-chained points does make a difference, and in some cases a very noticable difference. like changeing spark plugs when they deteriorate.
im not exactly sure how, but i think its a bit more metaphysical than your descriptions. the flow of energy around a charged source is important to the way it operates. in the same way ionising blood, fuel, water, etc can have an impact. i am replacing my supra's cables and have replaced them on other cars, though i think the soop is the only one that has 7 points. big lump i guess.
at £30 i dont mind how it works, just that it works. try it folks and see for yourselves.
also, i change all my home stereo and car stereo wiring for the same reasons, and i notice the difference. its up to you though.
Ben, try not to resurrect two year old threads :D
benstevensuk
24-03-06, 10:06 AM
oh, sorry.
Roger NE
24-03-06, 12:42 PM
Plus anyone who understands electronics knows that most of the arguments are a load of tosh !! The only time cable resistance is an issue is on cranking - if yours turns over well, your cables are fine.
What you WON'T do is get any improvement in performance!!
But people are sucked in by all the b*****t claims . . . just like people who spend a fortune on expensive audio cables, they convince themselves it sounds better!!
I've had great delight in doing real A-B comparisons for people on their own equipment, and they can't tell the difference when I've used ordinary cheap cable. (much to their disgust!)
Delphius
26-03-06, 10:35 AM
I dunno, the wiring in our old Supras is getting tired, plus it's only thin cable as well.
I wanted to make up a high-level LED brake light, so I checked the voltage at the rear lights. I was shocked to find the 13.8 volts at the battery terminals (with the engine running) struggled to reach 12.5 at the back end of the car. Of course, those electrons might be struggling to force their way through the rust at the rear arches... :)
So I can well understand that fitting aftermarket earth wires can show a significant improvement. Like I said, the sensor voltages involved in the engine management system are only small.
I just wonder if the reason people complain about the headlights is caused by voltage drop through tired wiring. On the VW Golfs there's a significant voltage drop from battery to headlight, so it's a known mod to improve the headlights by fitting a relay and chunky wiring to supply them. When I get mine through the MOT I think I might have a look at this on mine. A bit of a pain to get at the back of the headlight, but might be well worth it.
Roger NE
26-03-06, 03:54 PM
Yes but lights take a lot of current . . . sensors don't! (your voltage drop is about what you'd expect with that gauge of wire, by the way - it's a long run to the back of the car)
Sure, wiring resistance WILL make a difference on things that draw a lot of current. (It was me that suggested the relay modification to overcome the Starter Solenoid wiring problem)
But it won't make any difference to sensors . . . and certainly WON'T affect performance!
Incidentally, I've never examined the headlamp wiring, but always thought the stock headlamps were surprisingly good on the Mk3. They seem very bright, even with 100w bulbs. (where you think you'd get more voltage drop)
r.killa
28-03-06, 02:43 PM
i have spent years doing electronics and roger is right, if you have no faults in your wiring then a grounding kit will make absolutely no difference what so ever. if you have a fault then fix it. if you wiring becomes corroded then the device will stop functioning and that that. a grounding kit may give it an alternate route to earth but it should be running rough or not at all before hand. always a good idea to sort out the original earth points first before dressing it up in goodies!
i bought a kit off www.groundingkits.co.uk (http://www.groundingkits.co.uk) from pete (i think thats his name) and i bought the 7m turbo kit because it looked great with it's blue and gold plated bits but i bought it because i like shiny stuff (i'm a glitter wh0re!) not because of an engine problem.
adi, if you don't know if they fit on a 1jz i will tell you as soon as i fit it (or not as the case may be)
supradupra.com
28-03-06, 04:47 PM
The weakest link in every car circuit is normally where a wire goes through a connector.
If you think for instance the break light cable probably goes through 4 or 5 connectors before it reaches the rear of the car, thats alot of breaks in the cable.
With age these connectors corrode and become everso slightly resistive thus adding to voltage drop..the same for the engine connectors which go through hell..hot, cold, hot ,cold. How many of us have fallen foul of the non starting problem thanks to the CPS or spark pack connectors failing.
Best advice is just to keep things clean and corrosion free when it comes to electrical areas.
Earth problems are pretty much always down to corrosion be it on a light cluster connector (fords favourite lol) or the bodywork (most vauxhaul astras and novas)
r.killa
28-03-06, 04:57 PM
Earth problems are pretty much always down to corrosion be it on a light cluster connector (fords favourite lol) or the bodywork (most vauxhaul astras and novas)
you obviously know your fords (mk4 escort back "disco lights- need rewiring" back lights) and your vauxhalls (bodies glued together with some unidentifiable gunk with the minimum of spotwelds and therefore electrical contact)
supradupra.com
28-03-06, 05:01 PM
You should always keep that disco CD handy when your in a jam behind an old sierra or escort!
And keep a broom handy when following a vauxhal...
r.killa
28-03-06, 05:18 PM
You should always keep that disco CD handy when your in a jam behind an old sierra or escort!
And keep a broom handy when following a vauxhal...
they should put warnings on the backs of escorts saying "brake warning - braking may cause epilectic fits to following drivers"
Roger NE
04-04-06, 07:41 PM
With age these connectors corrode and become everso slightly resistive thus adding to voltage drop Absolutely . . . I routinely disconnect all my connectors and spray them with a proper switch cleaner/lubricant . . . then by plugging each one in and out a few times you remove any dirt or corrosion.
Most car electrics are extremely poorly designed . . . . and even though modern cars rely so much on them all, it's still the most neglected area in terms of maintenance!
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