PDA

View Full Version : BPU power and the automatic box (longer life)


Anh
29-08-04, 01:51 AM
I love using the power out of the 7M, but the autobox isnt as strong as the R154 manual box. The problem of the auto trans is 2 fold, and there are quite a number of BPU owners in the states who destroy their autoboxes when boosting over stock psi on a regular basis.

2 issues need to be dealt with regarding the gear box.

1) Fluid overheating
2) Sudden torque load during gear shifts

First, the fluids in the automatic (A340E) are poorly cooled with the stock transmission cooler, it is practically the smallest cooler by any standard. Now with anything above standard HP at normal ambient temps, we're talking about serious heat generated by the box and it will in time be bye bye torque converter and seals.

To tackle this, I'm working out how to install a secondary transmission cooler, something of the size of 10 - 13 rows inline with the stock cooler. I figured this is a good compromise between compactness and effective cooling capacity. To prevent *over-cooled fluid* a thermostat unit will be plumbed in between the stock and new cooler. The typical thermostat unit opens around 80 - 100 degrees C, so the new cooler only becomes useful when the trans fluid really becomes hot (i.e. hard acceleration @ boost). Regular changes to trans fluid might help maintain box life also.

Second problem lies with the shifting mechanism of the MK3 autobox. The MK4 TT box shares the same mechanical gears parts, but it has beefed up shift valves and a more elaborate shifting computer.

The standard MK3 turbo produces torque between the 200 - 270 lbs/ft range STOCK. I can assume that the autobox is strong enough to deal with this stock torque + some tolerance. How much tolerance is the key to prevent "excessive" torque loads to the box. i.e say you were boosting with 12 psi, and upon kick down the box shifts into 3200 rpm @ WOT. This would mean the box shifts directly into 380 lbs/ft of torque generated by the flexplate! That's atleast 100 lbs/ft of torque more than standard.

Dealing with this problem is more tricky and ultimately leads to making LESS torque and therefore LESS potential power to preserve the shifting mechanisms of the box - or atleast preserve it for a period that's acceptable until you find something else to play with.

So I find a sophisticated eletronic boost controller such as the Apexi AVC-R has the solution. This is as far as I know the only EBC that can vary boost automatically based on RPM values. The trick is to kerb boost levels so that the torque curve will never exceed a peak of say 290 lbs/ft in RPM ranges that the box would likely shift into (be it up or downshifting). Boost would then be raised so torque can be as high as 320 - 330 lbs/ft for maximum power in RPM ranges say 5000 - 6500 RPM. I don't think the auto box would ever downshift into these high RPM ranges.

I have read plenty of horror stories about high boost with stock auto transmissions, and their attempts to preserve the gear box failing (i.e. one made 450 lbs/ft of torque and 480 hp, stock auto lasted 2k miles), but none of them have dealt with both problems at the same time.

Lofty
31-08-04, 04:43 PM
Are you aware that the UK Supras already have a secondary transmission cooler? I have replaced mine with a larger unit (10 row I think, but I can't remember too clearly).
Personally I have switched to Redline ATF fluid and I always change 2 litres of fluid with every engine oil change.
I think there are parts available in the US to uprate the AT but they are usually core exchange. I'd be interested in finding someone in the UK that could beef up our transmissions.

adi
31-08-04, 06:22 PM
any decent autobox specialist willbe able to source an 340E upgrade kit and strip and rebuild using it.. cost is around £1100 IIRC. Colling isnt an issue with a big enough cooler .. i'm using an air cooler on its own and have no probs as yet (having said that its now doing a weird thing when manually shifting from 3rd to overdrive).

If you want someone who knows autoboxes then track down these guys,.. either in the midlands or in middlesex.
http://www.vmtp.com/

Anh
31-08-04, 08:06 PM
Where is the secondary cooler?? I've looked at the Toyota eletronics parts catalogue and I cant find any secondary cooler. There is only one, and it's mounted bottom of the radiator. Drive the car hard for a few minutes and you can feel alot of heat on the facia surrounding the auto shifter stick. Every time you increase temps by 20 degs F over 80 degs F you halve the life of the transmission fluid. The auto upgrades only deal with the valve mechanism, and an uprated torque converter will cost extra, but you still need to cool the fluids no matter what.

adi
01-09-04, 12:35 AM
the auto upgrades cover everything including clutch packs and torque converter, and make the thing ten times stronger. A properly built 340E can take some big horsepower.. enough to withstand a heavily built 7M. Unfortunately though as stock the 340 used on the UK mk3 isnt as strong as the other 340 based boxes.. and will fail long before the 1JZ 342 and the 2JZ 340.

anyway, nobodys denying you need to cool the fluids.. in fact we've all agreed with you :D

adi
PS i was a non-believer as well about the secondary air cooler.. until i saw one :D... apparently some have them and some dont.

imoyes
01-09-04, 07:54 AM
.. and will fail long before the 1JZ 342 and the 2JZ 340.

So can't you just slap a gear box from a MKIV in to your 7MGTE? I also heard that the Landcruiser uses the same box, that version must be built to take MASSIVE torque. Can't you just drop that in?

Lofty
01-09-04, 08:47 AM
Where is the secondary cooler??
It is shown on the EPC here. (http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/EPC/MKIII/291220/3514_2.html)
I think manual Supras use this as their secondary engine oil cooler (anyone confirm this?), but the autos use this as a tranny cooler in line with the radiator tube.
Keeping the fluids cool is definately important but so is increasing the friction surfaces to handle the extra load. A bit like getting an uprated clutch. You can raise the clamping forces slightly by adjusting the throttle valve cable but it is likely to further shorten the life of your AT.

imoyes
01-09-04, 08:59 AM
It is shown on the EPC.

I've got one, checked when I visited my Soop in hospital last night. :crybaby: :banghead: :rant:

Lofty
01-09-04, 09:47 AM
I've got one, checked when I visited my Soop in hospital last night.
It may be that all 89+ UK models had one. As a cheap and quick upgrade I think that you could just sandwich a second oil-cooler on top of the first with some extra hose and some tie-wraps. Should increase the surface area without compromising air-flow too much.

Anh
01-09-04, 06:25 PM
Lofty, thanks, but looking at the two transmissions coolers on the EPC show the same return and inlet fluid hoses connected to the auto-box. How can they both be on the Supra if there is no inline connection?

Lofty
02-09-04, 08:45 AM
Lofty, thanks, but looking at the two transmissions coolers on the EPC show the same return and inlet fluid hoses connected to the auto-box. How can they both be on the Supra if there is no inline connection?
You're sort of right but you haven't noticed that on the drawing I linked to some of the pipes appear to be going nowhere (32912D and 32910A). What they are really doing is going through the radiator tube, which is not shown. I noticed that when I posted it that is why I specifically said that it is inline with the radiator one. The other EPC drawing is for cars without the secondary cooler. Does that make sense?
From memory I think the routing is
Gearbox->radiator tube->oil cooler->gearbox return.
If you check under your car the routing will be obvious I think.

Anh
02-09-04, 01:03 PM
You're sort of right but you haven't noticed that on the drawing I linked to some of the pipes appear to be going nowhere (32912D and 32910A). What they are really doing is going through the radiator tube, which is not shown. I noticed that when I posted it that is why I specifically said that it is inline with the radiator one. The other EPC drawing is for cars without the secondary cooler. Does that make sense?
From memory I think the routing is
Gearbox->radiator tube->oil cooler->gearbox return.
If you check under your car the routing will be obvious I think.

So the radiator cools the transmission oil before the trans cooler does? I'll have a look at the car later.